A tale of two presa's


Reinmeister

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18 Δεκεμβρίου 2013
301
85
ενα καταπληκτικο αρθρο που αφορα τα presa canario και τα cane corso...

θα συμβουλευα να το διαβασουν,οχι μονο οι λατρεις των συγκεκριμενων φυλων,αλλα και οι υπολοιποι,ετσι ωστε να καταστει σαφες οτι η ιστορια των φυλων γενικοτερα,δεν ειναι απαραιτητως παντοτε ξεκαθαρη...

ασχολουμαι με την φυλη των presa canario σχεδον 20 χρονια και ομολογω οτι δεν ειχα ιδεα περι της συγκεκριμενης "συγγενειας"..

εγω εντυπωσιαστηκα...ελπιζω κι εσεις...

υ.γ. πολυ μεγαλο αρθρο,αλλα τοσο ενδιαφερον που θα το διαβασουν οι ενδιαφερομενοι μονορουφι...

enjoy...:cool:

A tale of two Presa's...

The Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana (ENCI) first recognised the Cane Corso in 1994 as the fourteenth Italian breed, and the breed club in 1995. This would be followed by FCI recognition in 1996.

Dedicated recovery of the breed/type from total extinction first occurred through efforts of enthusiasts in the mid/late 1970's by means of cross-breeding appropriate type and selected breeds with the core comprising the original (Cane da) Presa type dogs that also represent the true forebears of the Mastino Napoletano (which originated from 1949/50, based upon a far more limited and as a consequence, heavily inbred genetic core).

Most interesting on this point, it that the revival of Presa breeds, both Cane da Presa and Presa Canario corresponded with one another; far more than most purists on either breed's side would most readily care to admit. Tourists actively seeking sunshine and beaches began to find the Canaries in larger numbers from the 1960's ...and of course, the mid 1960's is about as early a period as one can readily identify a concerted effort being made to revive the Presa dogs of the islands, as yet still to be named or recognised officially, let alone internationally as Presa Canario.

Tourism from the 60's through to the 80's boomed in large part because of three factors:

1. The attractive combination of exotic flora, fauna, sun, sand and beaches
2. Lack of regulation that permitted the industry to grow
3. Whilst not 'cheap' air travel had begun to become affordable to at least a subset of 'the masses'

By the 1993, 6.5m tourists were visiting the islands a year, with the two most represented nationalities being from German and Great Britain. Of the total of the two combined, around 60% originating from Great Britain, 40% from Germany which also had a particularly strong Spanish-speaking contingent

Why is this of interest? The reason is because of the intrinsic link between the development of the Canaries as tourist destination and the Italian people and money that funded an extremely large proportion of it, which was also aided by the unrest that really came to a head from 1977 when Canarian Nationalists came into conflict with the Spanish fascist authorities. During this period the Canarian National Congress (CNC) was formed striving for independence and the rights of Canarian self-governance affording democracy, liberty, equality and respect for human rights.

The CNC is pertinent to discussion, because of their role in highlighting and attempting to oust corruption and foreign Mafia's from its shores and its opposition to the EEC ZEC (Canarian Economical Zone) organised by the autonomous government to launder black money. - The most significant amongst these mafia groups historically is poorly concealed by very use of the term 'mafia' - for it was Italian money that funded much of the development of the modern Canary islands; quite ironic also, that many who dislike the over-developed parts of the Canaries often describe them as 'wearing more concrete than a Mafia victim'.

This period of rich, affluent, landed individuals travelling regularly between the Italian peninsula and the Canarian archipelago was probably as, if not more responsible for influx of dogs comprised in the make-up of the re-constructed Presa breeds as any other source and for sure, is the most likely contributor of the 'mastino' to the modern Canarian Presa dogs, though to perceive this 'Mastino' as unequivocally being the 'Neapolitan Mastiff' would be quite a leap as it is known that it was actually a combination of Neapolitan's (original and Zaccharo types) and a large number of Cane da Presa dogs that would continue to interchange back and forth between the islands right up until pressure for regulation somewhat hindered the free movement of these affluent individuals during 1980's. How many traditional Canarian's would not only know of, but have the resources to instigate the selection, purchase and importation of dogs such as these without any sort of assistance?

Prof. Giovanni Bonatti first wrote about the Cane da Presa dogs, also known as Cane Corso in the 1950's, convinced that some had survived in the region of Puglia. There was documented evidence that some familial strains had survived, extremely inbred into the 1960's, as evidenced by dogs such as Principe.

In these days the Cane da Presa/Cane de Presa/Presa/Cane Corso was used primarily for hunting game such as wild boar, wolf, bear and badger (above ground), for droving and protecting livestock (such as goats and cattle), for guarding farms/property and also farmer's produce which would often be guarded by the 'haystack dogs' ...generally fawn/red Corsi that were believed to possess the fire their colouration suggested. These dogs were tethered to a point that ended in the midst of large haystacks that would be built-up much like a pyramid with but one entrance; beside home/shelter for the dog, it provided concealed storage of the farmer's goods and stores including that which he would take to market; the only way in, the 'door' for the haystack dog, meaning to steal, a thief would have to get past the dog, and that if the dog failed in its duties, not just dog, but family also would go hungry. This tradition still occurs even to this day, not just in Italy, but in remote agricultural regions such as the Azores where the Griffon and Cao Miguel still have been known to fulfil this role of guarding produce and valuable farm equipment. It was also often stated that amongst Goat herders (a profession often looked-down upon) in particular, Corsi were often fought in country-style matches; which in Spanish parlance one encounters called 'Pechadas'.

It was not until the late 70's and early 80's that the small group of Italian enthusiasts including Prof. Giovanni Bonatti, the Prof. Fernando Casolino, Dr. Stefano Gandolfi, the Sig. Gianantonio Sereni and the brothers Giancarlo and Luciano Malavasi re-established the breed, created a formal standard and founded the Societa Amatori Cane Corso (SACC) using dogs such as Duano and Tipsi with the ENCI following their progress with great interest from the outset.

συνεχιζεται...
 


Reinmeister

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18 Δεκεμβρίου 2013
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Dr. Antonio Morsiani was allowed to compile the Standard of breed and during 1988, in the shows of Milano, Firenze and Bari, the judges Morsiani, Perricone and Vandoni put into practice the important measurements more of 50 Corsi to the goal of verifying their adherence to the suitable characteristics in the project of Standard. In the same year the member/partner Vito Indiveri introduced the result of the census of the rustic (peasant) subjects to the ENCI with the recording of 57 dogs, equipped by 97 photos. Comforted by these positive developments, the Directive Suggestion of the ENCI decided to institute an Open Book, which to enrol the subjects, that were tattooed and had shown they conformed to the Standard. From 1989 to 1992, more than 500 samples were added to the Open Book and in January 1994 the breed was officially recognized by the ENCI as stated at the commencement of this piece.

The Cane Corso of today is a very different looking dog in comparison to its pre-80's forefathers. Indeed, the original standard implemented during 1988/89 (coincidentally the same period as per the Presa Canario) provided part of this impetus as it allowed for acceptance of the undershot bite, which functionally deviated from the form and type of the working, rustic 'peasant' dogs and all working dogs required to grip and hold. The result was valuable founders all but walking away from the breed and deviation of type; with the original, working type preserved by the Centro per la selezione funzionale delle antiche razze da lavoro italiane, and the show type adopted and embraced by the FCI and other global kennel clubs.

As would happen later on with the Fila Sao Miguel (through FCI Boxer infusion), surreptitious injection of other existing show breeds would contribute to change the coat of the KC Corsi, reduce the innate drive and consequently working ability of the dogs down to a more manageable level for showing and pet ownership; whilst accordingly human whim, fancy and market forces have seen the breed gain more bulk inadvisably accompanied by a shortening of the muzzle, widening of the skull and of course, loss of its original, functional scissor bite.

Like many breeds, the Cane Corso was quite late to arrive in North America; first officially imported to the USA in 1987 it was subsequently accepted by the UKC in 2008 & AKC in 2010. Despite this, the influence of the American dollar has had its usual consequences; creating hitherto unknown markets that greatly inflated the number of puppies produced, prices charged as well as a general reduction in the quality of the dogs and pressure to change the phenotype to larger, more cumbersome, less functional dogs. The relative wealth of N. America also allows for huge increase in population as more individuals breed, with another consequence being the creation of an inflated position in breed politics. This has been true not only of the Corso, but also the Presa/Dogo Canario (the latter being directly linked to development for a Westernised market) and other breeds, some of which have put-paid to N. American influence by demanding that standards be separated; as is now the case today amongst Japanese and American Akita's.

In returning to the Presa Canario debate, pre-1989 there was no Presa Canario breed, just as there was no Cane Corso breed either; both were formalised simultaneously and as a direct result of interchange between the two regions funded in large part by the flow of considerable sums of money between Italy and the Canaries. These individuals built hotels, restaurants and other facilities upon the islands to help legitimise and clean cash, whilst also building lavish personal accommodation that gated, covered relatively vast expanses of land which benefitted considerably from the presence of large, intimidating dogs to deter prying eyes, thieving hands or law enforcement officials attempts to gain intelligence.

The inference that dogs from pre-1989 were Presa's is correct, Presa Canario or Cane Corso; less so but no doubt possessed of some validity in context. Most of the initial exports of Presa's were to Italy and amongst the first to take the breed to other countries, including Germany, Canada etc. were Italians; it is logical therefore in modern perception, to believe these dogs were 'Cane Corso' rather than Presa Canario because the people they accompanied were Italian.

In reference to German bloodline Presa's and dogs like Arnold, you're talking about dogs in pedigree born before the Cane Corso had even been recognised as a breed. Dog's like Bindo were born back in 1981 and Sultan, Lara and Elvira were imports of Sewerin not Baumgartner. The dogs born to Baumgartner were bred under the affix Bentaiga not Matarife. There are quite well known pictures of both Lara and Tara along with other dogs on the Islands for those who have access to resources that long ago, including amongst others, Bethencourt's book. Leone was product of Spanish import.

There were moves amongst some of the German's in the 80's to infuse Pitbull blood into the genepool to 'improve performance'. This did not happen under the AVD (formerly Presa Canario V D) as presided over by Sewerin, but did garner a degree of support from Baumgartner and this was source of a split in the original club. At least three breedings were conducted under his Bentaiga affix that included some degree of Pit infusion, but none were registered under Sewerin's presidency and from reports, though Baumgartner's affix was used, he also did not preside over the breedings; moreover it appeared to be attempt to leverage his name, which due to his attitude and more affable relationship with the Spanish and Canarian people, was more widely known than that of Sewerin. Some of these dogs were permitted to enter working trials that included AVD dogs and some of these trials were filmed, which the likes of myself and Sati have watched, along with other footage spanning approx. 20 years covering Germany, Spain and the Canary Islands. Upon watching trial footage, it is evident without being told, that there are not so much pronounced physiological differences between the dogs, but certainly behavioural and temperamental differences and for the most part, those with experience could discern relatively easily which dogs were subject to Pit infusion. In some aspects of work they performed better, but for the most part, they performed consistently below that of the dogs not crossed; which is also why those who were there at the time quite happily point this out. As the saying goes, "if it isn't broken, don't fix it!" and despite popular mythology, the Pitbull is not the 'magic-fix' to all breeds of dogdom some perceive it to be.

A whole chunk of the pedigree of dog's like Arnold were born into the Kennel of Jose Gonzalez in the 1970's, which to best of my knowledge, Jose was not Italian. Overall, a sizable portion of the pedigree of dogs like Arnold can be traced as accurately as is possible to trace any line of Presa Canario, back to the late 1960's, back to the time when they were just referred to as Presa's.

It is known full well, that very many long-storied, respected modern lines of Presa Canario on the islands have recent infusions of other breeds, most notably Majorero, but also further back in time, atavistic bulldog, Mastin Espanol, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bullmastiff, English Mastiff, Fila Brasiliero and in some cases where lineage was directly tied to Pechada's American Staffordshire, American Pitbull, American Bulldog and (correctly or otherwise) Dogo Argentino (Hunting dog, not fighting dog), not to mention the many breeders who have also cited the use of Deutsche Dogge and Italian Presa's be they Mastino Napoletano or more functional Cane da Presa types.

Only the reader can determine what to them constitutes being 'Presa' or 'pure'.

If a continuous, traceable legacy to dogs originating from and obtained from the Islands dating back to a time 'pre-Presa', along of course with an unbroken legacy of performance selection and testing in protection service work and hunting (tested across Europe in the former Czech Republic & USSR and in Italy, Germany and Spain is evidence enough, the case is settled, if not those with doubts will surely find they persist and one can only then wonder what attracted them to and retains their interest in a breed steeped in 'mystery' to the point that many of the original 'show champions' had no discernible pedigree or lineage as recently as 15-20 years ago. Greyhound's, Deutsche Schäferhunde's, Saluki's - all breeds with verifiable lineage over much more than a few decades would seem to provide far more robust platform from which to pursue canine interests.
 


east49

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Μονορουφι οντως....
Αν κ ειχα ξαναδιαβασει αρθρα περι αυτης της συγγενειας (συχνα αναφερονται κ ως ξαδερφια) δεν ειχα βρει αρθρο τοσο εκτενες κ αναλυτικο.....

Το παραπανω αρθρο επισης εξηγει, γιατι μεσα σε μια φυλη οπως τα cane corso, υπαρχουνε τοσο μεγαλες εμφανισιακες διαφορες......
 


Reinmeister

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18 Δεκεμβρίου 2013
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οντως ξαδελφια λεγονται αλλα ειχα την αποψη ,οπως και πολλοι αλλοι,οτι μιλουσαμε για καποιο κοινο προγονο η εστω κοινη επιμιξια,αλλα με βαση το παραπανω κοντευουμε να τα πουμε αδελφια...

η "πλακα" ειναι οτι μπορει να παρεις κορσο που να ειναι περισσοτερο καναριο η και το αντιθετο...

θα πεσουν πολλα γελια μολις αρχισω να μιλαω εκτενως με εκτροφεις...

βρηκα ενα ελληνικο εκτροφειο καναρινιων που αναγνωριζει την διαφορα μεταξυ presa και dogo και λεει οτι εκτρεφει presa...εχει μαλιστα σε εξωτερικο λινκ ενα αρθρο του irema curto που θεωρειται τοπ παγκοσμιως που αφορα αυτη ακριβως την διαφορα...

Presa Canario. Breed Standard of the Perro de Presa Canario
 


bullkirkh

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30 Νοεμβρίου 2012
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rodos
καλω θα ειναι αν μπορεισ να βαλεις μερικες φωτο απο τα σκυλια που αναφερει το αρθρο γεια να καταλαβουμε τις διαφορες,,,πολη καλο;)
 


Reinmeister

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18 Δεκεμβρίου 2013
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καλω θα ειναι αν μπορεισ να βαλεις μερικες φωτο απο τα σκυλια που αναφερει το αρθρο γεια να καταλαβουμε τις διαφορες,,,πολη καλο;)
θα πρεπει να ανεβασω πολλες φωτο για να φανουν οι διαφορες ακομη και σε ιδια ρατσα,οποτε οπως καταλαβαινεις ειναι κομματι δυσκολο...:D
 


east49

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H tipsi


και ο duano


Οπως μπορει να παρατηρειτε ειναι μικρη η σχεση τους με το σημερινο "εμπορικο" cane corso......

Ειναι αυτο που λεμε "οταν μια φυλη αναγνωριστει, αρχιζει η υπερτυπικοτητα κ χανετε η ιστορια και η χρηση"
 




east49

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και ο γιος του παραπανω ζευγους, ο basir σκυλος πανω στον οποιο βασιστηκε το πρωτυπο των cane corso
 


george 1

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15 Αυγούστου 2011
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Θεσσαλονικη
Να προσθέσω κι εγώ μερικές...μόλις βρω χρόνο έχω και κάποια άρθρα να ανεβάσω για την ιστορία της φυλής-μεταφρασμένα δυστυχώς από μένα:rolleyes:.

Birillo.jpg Birillo Brina.jpeg Brina Bulan.jpg Bulan

Mirak.jpg Mirak Nada.jpeg Nada
 


east49

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Aπο τις παραπανω φωτο, ετσι για να καταλαβαινουν κ η μη τοσο ψαγμενοι,
Η Mirak ηταν η πρωτη θυλικια που καταγραφηκε (προ του προτυπου) που ζευγαρωσε κ εδωσε (μεταξυ αλλων) την brina που ηταν κ η μαμα της tipsi που λεγαμε παραπανω......
 


arrigo_corso

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Το είδα και τρόμαξα.
Δεν διαβάζετε τέτοια ώρα αυτό. Από αύριο.
Πολύ ενδιαφέρον όμως θέμα.
Να και αυτό με τις συνεντεύξεις φίλε east49.
Ορίστε και αυτό που έγραψα για το ''Cerberus'' (Giancarlo Malavasi) στο θέμα του Arrigo.
Έχει και Uberto Leone, Bocci, Martinotti.
Entrevistas originales | original interview

Καλά θα ήταν όμως αυτά να μπούνε σε θέμα με cane corso, αλλά ακόμα περιμένω τη μεταφορά που σου είπα.
 


east49

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6 Δεκεμβρίου 2012
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Το είδα και τρόμαξα.
Δεν διαβάζετε τέτοια ώρα αυτό. Από αύριο.
Πολύ ενδιαφέρον όμως θέμα.
Να και αυτό με τις συνεντεύξεις φίλε east49.
Ορίστε και αυτό που έγραψα για το ''Cerberus'' (Giancarlo Malavasi) στο θέμα του Arrigo.
Έχει και Uberto Leone, Bocci, Martinotti.
Entrevistas originales | original interview

Καλά θα ήταν όμως αυτά να μπούνε σε θέμα με cane corso, αλλά ακόμα περιμένω τη μεταφορά που σου είπα.
A μπραβο!
Αυτες σου ελεγα, απλα εγω τις ειχα τυπωσει (για να καταφερω να τις δωσω για μεταφραση)
 


arrigo_corso

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Δεν είχα ιδέα για αυτό το άρθρο.

Δηλαδή, κοινή αφετηρία. Διαφορετική εκτροφή από ένα σημείο και μετά;
Έτσι εξηγούνται ( ; ) πολλά από τα παρακάτω. Αποδεκτά και στις 2 φυλές.
α)Δάγκωμα. Προγνανθισμός, τόσο, όσο να εφάπτονται τα δόντια στο κλείσιμο ή το ανάποδο ακριβώς κλείσιμο. Αποδεκτό και το δάγκωμα ''τανάλια''.
β)Μέγεθος, Ύψος, Βάρος. Αυτό που υποστηρίζουν οι παλιοί εκτροφείς cane corso ήταν και το παλιό presa canario 2001-2011 (ή το αντίθετο).
γ)Μεγάλο κεφάλι - Καλό κόκκαλο - Εξαιρετική κίνηση.
η "πλακα" ειναι οτι μπορει να παρεις κορσο που να ειναι περισσοτερο καναριο η και το αντιθετο...
Έτσι εξηγείται η εικόνα που έχω χρόνια στο μυαλό μου.
 


east49

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α) Αποδεκτο ειναι το προγναθικο κ το ισιο (level). Οχι το ψαλιδωτο (scissor bite- "tanaglie"), οπως ηταν πριν την αναγνωριση.
β) ναι.... η καπως ετσι...
γ) Κι ομως αυτο στο οποιο διαφερουνε περισσοτερο ειναι το.... κεφαλι! Στο σωμα, η ισια γραμμη των corso ειναι πολυ πολυ κοντα στα canaria

Eαν δεις τους πρωτους καταγεγραμμενους εκπροσωπους της φυλης των corso θα δεις κατι που οπτικα σου κανει για........
 


arrigo_corso

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Εντάξει δεν είπαμε και ακριβώς. Και λέω για παλιά, Τώρα έχουν πολλές διαφορές.
α ) Ναι
β ) μικρές διαφορές.
γ ) τα σκυλιά στη φωτογραφία είναι presa. Τι λες για κεφάλι;
 


east49

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Παλια σου ειπα, για μενα κ οσα εχω δει, δεν τα ξεχωριζεις!
Σημερα ομως οι βασικες διαφορες τους ειναι στο κεφαλι.....
 


arrigo_corso

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Το ίδιο λέμε.
Το α, β, γ, που έγραψα είναι για τα παλιά presa και corso.
Απλά εγώ πιστεύω ότι οι σημερινές διαφορές presa και corso δεν είναι μόνο το κεφάλι, πλέον δεν μπορείς να πεις ότι έχουν παρόμοιο σωματότυπο. Διαφέρουν πολύ.
 


east49

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Το ίδιο λέμε.
Το α, β, γ, που έγραψα είναι για τα παλιά presa και corso.
Απλά εγώ πιστεύω ότι οι σημερινές διαφορές presa και corso δεν είναι μόνο το κεφάλι, πλέον δεν μπορείς να πεις ότι έχουν παρόμοιο σωματότυπο. Διαφέρουν πολύ.
Εξαρταται ποια γραμμη κοιτας στα μεν κ με ποια συγκρινεις στα δε......
Υπαρχουνε περιπτωσεις που απο φωτο δεν θα τα ξεχωριζαμε.....